Been There, Done That

In the 1980’s, Russia went into Afghanistan and spent a decade before backing out. Russia has some advice for the US. What do you think? 

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/336/story/81136.html

In Russia, foreboding about America's war in Afghanistan

Vladimir Kostyuchenko, who served as a helicopter pilot during three tours for the Soviet military in Afghanistan, says he's still haunted by his time there. (Tom Lasseter/MCT) | View larger image

By Tom Lasseter | McClatchy Newspapers

MOSCOW — Thirty years ago this week, the Red Army began its invasion of Afghanistan, a move that sank the Soviet Union in a decade of guerrilla war and hastened the collapse of the Cold War empire.

Today, as former Soviet soldiers watch American troops trying to pacify the same stretches of Afghan land they once fought for, aging Soviet generals and grunts alike are reminded of a war they'd rather forget.

While Russians are willing, and often eager, to predict utter defeat for U.S. efforts based on their own failure in Afghanistan, they're much less comfortable talking about the pain of reportedly having lost more than 14,000 lives in a war that ended in retreat.

Comparing wars is a process riddled with inconsistency — the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan was far different from the American presence today — but on the eve of the anniversary of the Soviet war, the somber and at times anguished way that veterans in Russia spoke of their time in Afghanistan was a disturbing reminder of the hurdles that American forces now face.

The retired soldiers talk about Afghanistan in terms that echo the American experience in Vietnam: of winning battles but losing the campaign, watching the local population throw its support behind an insurgency and, finally, coming home to a country that no longer understood or supported their war.

As the Obama administration sends in 30,000 to 35,000 more troops by next summer — raising the total of U.S. and coalition forces in Afghanistan to at least 140,000 — men such as Alexander Tsalko say they can't fathom why anyone would want to fight in that land of sharp mountain ridges and hot desert sands.

"Nothing was achieved while I was there. ... There wasn't anything good there; they fired at us, we fired at them," said Tsalko, who commanded a helicopter unit in Kandahar from 1982 to 1983.

Tsalko was later the deputy head of a Soviet state defense committee and then a member of a Russian government commission for veterans affairs. He's spent the last several years working for an organization that helps disabled veterans.

What are his thoughts in late December, the period when the Soviets thrust into Afghanistan with a troop buildup on Dec. 24 and Dec. 25 and then the overthrow of the government on Dec. 27?

"Bitterness and regret that we were drawn into this war," Tsalko replied.

In short, he said, "those who fought there do not want to talk about it when they're not drunk."

Unlike Russia's springtime celebration of its World War II victory over Nazi Germany, a national holiday that includes a triumphant, sparkling military parade in Red Square, the anniversary of the Soviet war in Afghanistan is hardly mentioned in the cold, dark days of December.

"It's especially difficult to remember those episodes that so many would like to leave behind," said Vladimir Kostyuchenko, a helicopter pilot for three tours in Afghanistan who's now active with an Afghan veterans group in Russia. "These generals at the top, they had no sense of reality. They gave us murderous orders. I still bear a cross because I fulfilled those orders."

Kostyuchenko, a slightly pudgy man with a friendly face whose helicopter was shot down in 1988, continued the thought: "Later we saw the results, and they were terrible."

Igor Rodionov, who from 1985 to 1986 commanded the Soviet 40th Army, its main military force, said it wasn't just the troops who were conflicted.

"On one hand, I was indignant when I understood what this decision to invade Afghanistan would result in. I could say that to my friends, but I could not say it out loud because I was a general," said Rodionov, who retired as a four-star general and later was a Russian defense minister and then a parliament deputy. "Our sacrifices were not needed."

Rodionov, who's now 73, looked down at a table in front of him and arranged a pen, plate of crackers and a napkin to demonstrate the flanks of a troop position. He gazed at them for a moment with a bemused expression, as if to recognize the absurdity of talking about the violence of war while pointing at a napkin.

Pushing the items forward, Rodionov said that commanders often sent their men to hunt for the enemy in villages on either side of mountain gorges near vital transport routes.

"We could fight for two weeks in this gorge, killing the Afghans," he said in a gravelly voice. "In return they kill our guys. We have used all our water, ammunition and food, and then we must go back to our rear position."

Rodionov pulled the pen, crackers and napkin back to their starting places: "Then the mujahedeen" — meaning holy warriors, the term used by Afghan fighters — "would return to the gorge, and the whole thing continues."

The Soviet experience, of course, isn't proof that the same fate will befall the United States, which is now more than eight years into its Afghan war.

While the Soviet invasion in 1979 was widely seen across the world as an act of wanton aggression, a broad coalition of countries supported the U.S. decision in the aftermath of 9/11 to topple the Taliban government in Kabul and hunt down al Qaida.

The Soviets were badly hobbled by Western and Arab financial and arms support for the Afghan fighters, especially U.S. Stinger anti-aircraft missiles, which American pilots haven't had to face.

The current collection of insurgents and terrorists — though they include some of the same men the U.S. backed against the Soviets — aren't thought to receive anywhere close to that level of foreign help.

Still, the men who took part in the Soviet fight for Afghanistan say that no matter how smart the Obama administration's plans are for turning the tide, they stand little chance in a country that's known as the graveyard of empires.

"Afghans will fight foreign troops as long as foreign troops are there," said Lev Serebrov, whose time there was bookended by the Soviet invasion and retreat. He arrived in 1979 and stayed through 1981 as a lieutenant colonel and deputy division commander, and returned from 1987 to 1989 as a major general and deputy to the Soviet operations commander for the Afghan war.

"No one should go there armed," said Serebrov, who's now a deputy in Russia's lower house of parliament.

Kostyuchenko, the helicopter pilot, hosts a neighborhood remembrance of the war on Dec. 27, the date that Soviet forces murdered Afghan President Hafizullah Amin in order to replace him with a more loyal pawn. Killing Amin was the point of no turning back, Kostyuchenko explained.

On Sunday night, a group of old women, some of them wearing black scarves, will shuffle into a drab apartment on Mikhailov Street and light candles for their dead sons. The candles, from a nearby church, are thin so that they'll fit into the spent bullet cartridges that Kostyuchenko lines up in a row at a small exhibit about the war that he tends.

Tsalko, the veterans' issues advocate, didn't say whether he'd be attending any memorial services.

After speaking of the bad dreams and drinking that come after a war ends, Tsalko thanked a reporter for his time and headed toward the door. Putting on his scarf, long winter coat and thick brown fur hat, he had one last thought: "It's very hard to fight in Afghanistan. Your leadership will have to find a way out."

Comments

[Tyler]

The definition of crazy is doing the same things over and over and expecting the same results. Republican or democrat, I don't care what your political views are…you have to learn from past mistakes. Bush made the first mistake, and Obama followed in his footsteps. We are encountering the same problem as in Vietnam…you can’t wage war on a people that are no different than normal citizens.

This war is one that has already been tried, lost and put down in the history books…why in the world is this war even happening? Even if from the beginning we doubted that the war would take the path that it took with the Russians, along the way someone HAD to notice the similarities.

You cannot win a war in which you don’t even have a clearly defined target. The initial attack on Afghanistan for Bin Laden, that was understandable. An international war on terror…now that is absolutely insane and even the name is contradictory to victory. You cannot wage war on a war tactic…it doesn’t work. Don’t believe me? Read above post…

[bsn]

I used to wonder why we had to learn about history and wars and all this other stuff that I thought was not important. That is until I had this teacher who showed me that history often repeats itself. I know this seems like a broad statement but once you look at particular events in history we see that this statement is true.

In this article we see many parallels between the Russian's war with Iraq and the United States' war in Iraq. I know that just because they failed does not mean that Obama will fail, but it is important to look at the facts. In this case the fact is that Iraq is a country that is not going to back down, and it is a country that has caused the destruction of other larger powers.

So if history truly does repeat itself then it will not be long before the United States is no longer an Empire as well. I feel like this United States should learn from the mistakes made in previous wars.

[quicktype89]

I agree with the previous two statements. American government must take to time to learn from the past, not just our past but past histories and world events: something our previous administration obviously didn't care to notice (or did). The comparison that America's "War on Terror" to that of Vietnam holds true in my belief. Who are we to think that we have the best government, the best plan of action for a state? Nobody. Not all places want to or can be like the United States' government. Middle eastern countries have thrived-well had-off of theocracy since the creation of Islam. Although America does not agree with this type of governing we still have no right to pretend to be their savior and change the ways of a people we don't understand. Just think if they had done the same to us.
The Russian's tried to impose their type of government on the people of Afghanistan and were met with the same results and conflicts America is facing in the failing war. A lesson in history at it's finest. Sadly however, we cannot change what has already taken place in the Middle East these past six plus years. What needs to happen now is change, but we can never forget what has happened so that this does not happen again. Hopefully as less arrogant and imposing America will emerge from this and maybe the world will come to love us again.

[mgn]

It’s hard to believe that in the world we live in we constantly follow in the footsteps of our past failures. It seems as if we never look back and check the history books before we make a decision to see how it worked out the first time around. That is the main reason we keep records of the past so that we can learn from our mistakes by not repeating them.
The big question is what have we learned from war? Well for one we have learned that in the end everyone ends up losing. Even the winners or those who come out on top in the end have lost as much as they have gained.
In the 1960s the U.S made the mistake by getting involved in Vietnam. They were there for about sixteen years and came home with only broken soldiers. Then when Russia was in Afghanistan their soldiers came home only to say that they achieved nothing. Now in the present day eleven years after Russia left Afghanistan the U.S. is marching in their footprints and deepening the predicament.

[David Cook]

I can truly appreciate this article. The first two posters put it as well as I could or anyone else; "History repeats itself." You can see it clearly here, paralleled to the failed Russian attempt to take over Afghanistan. In another twenty of thirty years you will be seeing the same types of articles about the same types of "Generals" and "Grunts." The only difference, is that these soldiers will be American. Our very own troops who have had to experience a war to which there seems to be no end. How is pumping more troops into the region going to help with a withdrawal?

It is true, the Obama administration is going to have to find a way to get out before t is too late. Actually. Just saying that I feel foolish, because it truly is already too late. The war we have engaged in to exterminate terror is costing us the lives of mother's sons and we are unable to show them hope of victory or even an end to the constant struggle. What are we going to say when all is said in done? Are we even going to be able to dig ourselves out of the "graveyard for empires?"

[kmcnutt]

The similarities of these two are uncanny, along the lines as leadership, troop deployment and success outcome. For Americans and Russians to be put on such a high intellectual pedestal, I feel this shouldn't be repetition.
I never knew of this Soviet attack against the Afghans, but now that I do, I feel that both Presidents should have taken better actions. We have men and women willing to fight, but we also have a duty to fight for something worth winning. If it has been shown that the people of Afghanistan will fight as long as there are troops to fight, the results are almost doomed to be negative for the American side.
As we approach a new decade, full of new actions to be taken, I wonder why we can not learn from history and others mistakes to help make our future positive and more prosperous.

[JohnEvans]

I have but one question to propose to you all; What would you recommend? Do you really want us to leave people whose stated goal is the destruction of the United States of America alone? We all know that half of the security measures at home are just to make us feel better. The only way to insure our safety is too hunt our enemies down, unrelenting and regardless of cost. The true lesson we should learn from Vietnam is to actually support our troops. That war didn't fail do to our generals or soldiers. It failed because the citizens abandoned the troops. We must stay strong and stand beside our troops and let them no we support them and their mission. We must hunt down Osama and every know Al-Queda operative to neutralize a threat and provide an example to all who would strike on our soil. Our experience in Afghanistan is not comparable to Russia's because we do not want to gain territory and only want to neutralize a threat

[Tyler]

John--

"Do you really want us to leave people whose stated goal is the destruction of the United States of America alone?"

These "people" that you are talking about are everywhere in the world. This is the reason a war on terror is not possible. Do you know why fire ants still exist in America? Because we can't go to Texas and engage in a War on Fire Ants. Of course, not making a literal comparison of terrorists and fire ants, but the point is that America will NEVER be able to defeat these "people".

You also say-- "Our experience in Afghanistan is not comparable to Russia's because we do not want to gain territory and only want to neutralize a threat"

What threat is Afghanistan? Is that really the reason? If so...why was Iraq invaded? There is no threat, never was a threat and even when that was revealed that the so-called "imminent danger" of weapons of mass destruction were absolutely false why didn't we leave? I mean...according to you, our goal is only to neutralize a threat.

[David Cook]

Sorry John, I really do have to agree with Tyler on this. You are right when you say we are supposed to support our troops. Not to do so is a crime. Giving all the support int he world to our troops is not going to win this war against terror, though. You can not wipe out a religious sect willing to throw away all dignity and hide in mountains and holes. All of the technology in the world is not going to find them and to continue to try to wipe them out is doing nothing but fighting a losing battle.

[quicktype89]

Tyler and David-
I totally agree and I must add that the war failed because we were never fighting a real thing to begin with. We have been fighting an idea, but an idea that is impossible. There is nothing truly physical about this war and that is why we must leave and put our assets and funds into a new project that will produce something and bring hope to our nation that has been hurting, and with that hopefully bring a new hope to the world that America will be able to stand on its feet again.

[Ghost]

The Russians know what we seem to not understand, fighting a terrorist group on their own turf is next to impossible. The Taliban extremest do not fight in uniforms, and organized manner, or out in the open, something I will tag as "traditional warfare". They play their shadow game techniques, hitting us hard while we are unaware then retreating. The Russians spent alot of time and money doing what our troops are ordered to do today.

[Larz]

From this article you really can tell many of the similarities between Russia's war with Iraq and our war with Iraq. And like someone has already posted history does tend to repeat itself. The US should really try and learn from this little saying, maybe it would help us out. However, I do not feel like we should even be in this war still. Like someone has already said, the initial attack on Afghanistan was, I feel, needed. But now its being drug out and really should just be over, we need to get refocused as a nation on things that will help us stay powerful, instead of the way we are going right now.

[Julie Jackson]

My Teacher in high school as well told me that history repeats itself. I do believe that it does and if we are not careful things may become a lot worse that they are. We must look and study past history and see what mistakes were made to make sure that they are not made agian. There have been many wars before us therfore we can look back and see what we have done wrong and right. If history repeats itself we should try to make it only repeat the good things and right decisions that were made in the past. This makes me thankful to be in the United States and not in some place like Russia.

[Morgan]

I would like to think that we could learn from other people's mistakes. In this article, Russia does nothing but advise us not to fight in Afghanistan. Although, Russians were fighting to conquer and we are protecting ourselves from al Queda. But, troops have occupied Afghanistan for 8 years with very little progress. What is the point of this war if we are not accomplishing anything?